The Myth of Post-Military Employment


Over the past two years a situation has repeated itself numerous times.  I’ll be talking with another company grade officer and the subject of future plans will come up.  I’ll ask them about what duty stations they would like to see or programs they would like to apply to in the future.  Then the conversation will shift to me and I tell them I’m planning on separating from the Marine Corps at the end of my contract.  The next move is the same in about 70% of these conversations.  The other officer looks at me with surprise in their eyes and says one of two things:

1. Showing great worry and concern: ‘What are you going to do?”

2. Showing anticipation that they know the answer is ‘yes’: “Oh, you have a job lined up?”

Perhaps it serves me right, because I have an impeccable ability to offend others, that I am greatly offended by both questions.  To clarify, it is not the question alone that offends me, as each question has a simple and legitimate answer.   It is the combination of the question with the emotion I can see in their demeanor when they ask it.   The first statement says to me, “Have you considered the consequences?  What are you possibly qualified to do outside of the Marine Corps?”  The second statement says to me, “Obviously you’d never consider leaving this job without the absolute certainty of another job, so what have you (make quote gesture with fingers) lined up (/quote gesture) two years in advance?”  In case you can’t tell, I hate the phrase “have a job lined up.”  It reeks of inconfidence and presumption.  It’s as if the thought never occurred to them that anyone would be confident enough to separate from the military and put themselves on the job market.  Now having completed the process, I understand their concerns a little more vividly.  However, it still irks me when people ask those questions in that way.

Now, with that primer, on to the myth.  There is a common thinking in the military among first and second term members that the combination of your specific job training with your leadership skills immediately opens a world of opportunities to you in the civilian world–specifically, high-paying opportunities.  Countless times I have heard people quote what they think someone with their training and experience would make in the civilian world.  It’s usually ridiculously high.  There are a few exceptions, and I’ll cover those later, but the vast majority of people are trying to make themselves feel better about their military service, in my opinion.

I know this because I just took a long, hard look at the civilian job market.  I created a resume and started marketing myself through internal networking and online application systems.  My strategy was to cast a wide net, sort out the trash, and hope for one or two jewels to sift out.  It worked, and I couldn’t be happier with my placement.  Through completing this process I learned a lot about searching for jobs, applying for job, what employers are looking for, what they don’t care about, and what salaries they are paying.  Now, on to disproving the myth.

First, if you don’t have either a bachelor’s degree or a very, very valuable individual skill then you can count yourself out of making big bucks right off the bat.  By very, very valuable individual skill I mean extreme proficiency in a technical trade, like being a Java/SQL/web development guru, for just one example.  I don’t mean that you can create a web page in MS Frontpage, or that you read slashdot.org regularly.  I mean you are that 1% that eats, sleeps, and breathes some technical skill and loves doing it, because you wouldn’t be that good at it if you didn’t love doing it.  There are tons of other skills that could meet those criteria.  I just used web development as one.  However, if you plan to get in under the individual skill criteria then your job search will be very limited.  There will be only a few types of positions that you will be qualified for.  Even with a degree or individual skill then you shouldn’t expect to make any more than other entry level employees with that skill or education.

Companies seem to be very reluctant to accept military leadership experience as management experience.  This is probably because in the military leaders are surrounded by subject matter experts that advise them.  A certain initial learning curve is expected.  It is my perception that in the civilian sector more expertise is expected from leaders, and you can’t have that expertise without working for that particular company for a while.  You’re not going to get hired into a mid-level management position just because you’ve got four or eight years of military leadership experience as your only professional experience.  If you have a degree to go with it, it’s still unlikely, but possible.

Many employers simply don’t know much about the military, and your four or eight years in the military may be viewed as four or eight years spent digging fighting holes and cleaning machineguns.  The company may not expect much leadership from employees not in a management role (and you don’t have the expertise to start in a management role), so leadership skills may be viewed as a “nice to have,” but not as fulfilling a requirement for a position.  Most often I think military experience is seen as a witness of character and work ethic, but not as being directly applicable to a civilian position, unless that position specifically involves military subject matter.

Education appears to be the key in finding employment (who’d have thunk it?).  If you have an undergraduate degree in addition to military experience, especially in a technical field, then you’ll probably find several good opportunities.  You’ll also be qualified to apply for many different positions at many different companies.  A graduate degree immediately knocks down the experience required (usually by two years) to get into the same position as someone with an undergraduate degree, and the pay increases accordingly.  If you want to market yourself for positions requiring a degree and you don’t have one then you’ll have to substantiate your qualifications significantly in order to get a prospective employer to take a good look at your resume.

Lastly, you can’t create jobs that aren’t there.  You may be the perfect XYZ for ABC company, but if ABC doesn’t need any XYZs at the moment, then you’re stuck.  Also, you can’t expect to get paid more than peers just because of military experience.  It’s not some magical clause on your resume that means the employer will now give you $10k more per year.  Without great exception you’ll make the same salary as other employees with your level of experience and education, and your military service probably won’t count significantly towards that experience.  As I said, your service will act as a huge character reference, and will almost surely increase your chances of being hired.  However, it is unlikely it will significantly affect your salary, unless the job deals with military subject matter and your experience has uniquely qualified you for the position.

Now, the exceptions.  Obviously, if you have a skill or training that takes a lot of time or talent to learn and you want to continue to work in that field, and you’re not particular about where you live or what conditions you work in then you can probably make a lot of money. 

Example: A 2671 (Arabic linguist) receives almost 1.5 years of Modern Standard Arabic language training at the Defense Language Institute in Monterrey, California.  After that they will probably receive dialect training in the dialect that is in demand at the time (right now it’s Iraqi dialect).  They will then deploy and use this skill in country.  After their contract is up they can obviously make a lot of money by using their language skills for a defense contractor working in Iraq, or even a contractor in the states supporting Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Example: Flight training for pilots is between 1.5 and 3 years long depending on the airframe and time delays between schools.  Pilots then serve a 6-8 year contract after completing training.  After that training and experience and I would theorize that a pilot could easily work for a civilian airline or other company in the aviation industry using those skills, and probably receive handsome pay.  However, you must be willing to go where the job is, and obviously travel a lot.

Many military members, but officers and retirees specifically, can benefit from the use of a headhunter organization.  Headhunters get paid by companies to find suitable employees for those companies.  One popular headhunter is Lucas Group.  If you’re willing to move anywhere in the US and do a variety of jobs you could probably get placed by a headhunter into a position with a higher than average salary for your experience level.  I think this comes from the reputation the headhunter builds with companies by providing them quality employees.  Being willing to move anywhere that a job might want you is a huge advantage.  If you don’t have any preferences on location then you’ll have a much larger selection.  There are also hundreds of other exceptions to the rule, and I’m sure I’ll read about a few in the comments that somehow disprove my entire theory.  Retirees are also a completely different ballgame.  That’s not the subject of this blog.  My intent is to present the facts concerning the average service member separating from the military after 4-8 years.

Take a look at my previous blog on the myth of military pay.  At the end of a service member’s first contract he is probably an E-4 with 4 years of service.  That’s an equivalent annual salary of over $40k.  If he plans to keep his standard of living he had better meet one of the following criteria:

A) have a degree

B) have a valuable technical skill

C) be very flexible in location and working conditions of future employment

Disagree?  Find some open job listings that refute my argument and we’ll talk about it.  Personal stories and examples don’t count.  You’ve got to show proof.  This is the internet.  You can make up all kinds of crap and post it as fact.  Just look at my blog.

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Reader Comments

Your article is right on. I recently retired from the USN as a Warrant Officer (Information Systems) with a BS degree and a high security clearance. I thought companies would line up to snap up a guy with those cedentials. While a few defense contractors did show interest, I wasn’t willing to move to D.C. area or SOCAL. I utilized the Lucas Group and they were able to land me in the area and the job best suited to my needs. They coached me on resume preparation and interviewing skills. Out of the 9 companies I interviewed with, 8 showed interest. I am confident I could never have gained an interview with these companies, without Lucas. This is not an endorsement for Lucas, I’m sure Bradley Morris and Orion work similarly.

Broderick,
Glad to hear you got placed where you wanted. Lucas Group didn’t end up placing me, because of my specific desires, but one of their reps named Jim Lose was extremely helpful. I would recommend them to anyone.

Don’t you think some of it is that they ask the questions because they’re moto and cannot fathom why you’re getting out?

So I know this is totally different but I knew a lot of spouses who would ask the “REALLY? WHY?” questions to another spouse who said their husband was getting out. It was in this way that was kind of looking down on the family who’d decided to get out. Not that they thought they weren’t capable of doing something else rather they just can’t comprehend WHY anyone would. These were O spouses.

Just a thought. Perhaps it’s that they don’t get why you want to get out?

Good article.

I was fortunate to use the GI Bill and National Guard to pay for my education when I left active duty.

I believe a Mentor network should be implemented (if not already) either thru the Military or a Service Association. Maybe I not aware of such services but I dont think much is done to help you out when you ets.

You are right on. When I retired from the army I had two masters degrees and what I thought was years of experience I had trouble finding a job. Most companies and two state government agencies did not count my military experience. I was looking for an environmental job and ended up in information technology and it took me 3 years for my pay to catch up to my pension.

Thanks for your service and also for this very enjoyable and most informative blog.

I do agree with you posting regarding employment after the military. I was not a Marine but was in the Army and my career was mostly spent in the Human Resources field as well as time as an Executive Admin Assistant and mail clerk (I am sure that you would know us better as the REMF’s LOL!).

In my experience, veterans have a hard time selling themselves to the civilain world. Even more so if you are a woman. I ended up going to a temp agency and they were extremely helpful even if I had to “dumb” things down for them. My current employer is another story since I work in a female dominated environment and most of them are pampered little brats (at least in my opinion). But at least I make enough money to keep the kids fed and a roof over our heads right now.

It is a shame that the “real world” isn’t able to appreciate those that wear the uniform more but you do what you can.

Thank you again for your service.

PS Sorry for the bad typos, you don’t have spell check LOL and it isn’t easy typing and yelling at three kids.

I have to agree wholeheartedly. The problem here is the paradyme shift that happend in the late 80’s concerning education and military service. There was a time that if you received your BS/BA what have you, then the market rewarded you on that committment. And a person that did 20 years displayed the ability to be loyal. The officer and enlisted barriers were never crossed. But towards the 90’s more enlisted started getting BS and Master degree but had the technical skill sets taught to them from the military. Job descriptions started saying things like BS degree or equivelent experience. OPM started translating by Occupation Skills how long a person had to do a job in order to equal a BS. The military taught the enlisted technical skills and paid for certification while the officer were left as managers but both classes having degrees.

Let me give you an example. I was enlisted, I have an Associates, but I have been AVP at Bank of America, Manager of Network Security of Verizon Global Security Operations Center, and my current employer has me at a GS-13 which is a LCOL equivalent. But, I am still in the Inactive Ready Reserves as a SSgt 139 hours to put to a degree whenever i get around to it. I had to decide whether to mold my opportunities to the civilian world or keep the ’stripe-race’ up and remain below the poverty level. The military civilian transitioning programs do not explain the complexities of civilian managers versus military managers. When I left active duty in 1994 I read a book called What Color Is Your Rainbow? From that point on I realized that a chest full of ribbons, pristine evaluations, meant nothing to the civilian world. Once you get past that hurdle you developing civilian skills. The diction is different, the focus is different, the means of respect is academic versus by rank. Your snares and traps are different.

My advise to anyone leaving the military with clearance. Hold on to it for dear life. It does open doors but DoD clearance is not the same as State Department clearances.

I have two children in the military and I told them this from day one, focus on when you get out. It may be in 4 years or 20 years but the military is going to get theirs out of you. Focus.

Your candor and understanding of the situation facing the companies and candidates in the military transition area is uncommon. I find it refreshing to see this point of view from someone who is not a recruiter.

My focus is transitioning military technicians. They have to be willing to do what the company wants just as you stated. For technicians the keys are location, willingness to travel and ability to repair complex machinery (not just computers).

Congratulations in the successful completion of your search.

My perception is that your article is mostly correct. I am looking at this from a different angle - a civilian who likes the military - as I have been in the position of the hirer.

While your military experience will count to a small degree with those very few of us with vision, for the most part you will find that it counts for little or nothing on the front end, the initial salary or wages. The average civilian has no clue at all when it comes to your military experience, and you are not going to be able to educate them in the interview and hiring process.

Where it is going to count is down the line. You know that military leadership training gives you some leadership skills that most civilians will never be taught. It also gives you the ability to focus and apply yourself in a determined and concentrated manner. In the end, these military-taught skills will help you rise faster and be worth more as those skills become recognized.

So, don’t expect the big bucks up front - expect that your hard work and training will help you outdistance everyone except the other ex-military members.

had better meet one of the following criteria:

A) have a degree
B) have a valuable technical skill
C) be very flexible in location and working conditions of future employment

That, especially (c) is KEY. Also extremely important: too many people in the military are completely unaware of how to navigate the civilian job market, especially enlisted types (I was enlisted myself), and have no idea how to translate their skills into civilian language (much less a resume that makes sense to the civilian world). Speaking as one who was in the Air Force, they did a decent job with transition assistance in the short time they had, but I’m not under any illusions that it helped even a majority of those who went to transition assistance. Since getting out, I saw a LOT of crappy resumes and even more former/retired military who sold themselves short. I think that’s why there’s the impression that civilians don’t really value military service–the former/retired military members aren’t doing a great job selling themselves (senior NCOs are the worst about this, and always end up taking jobs that are beneath them!).

There’s been reams of military and civilian material printed on how to transition, but it also needs to be supplemented with some actual contacts in civilian industry–something a lot of military members don’t have, either by choice or by circumstance. It really IS about who you know, most of the time (that’s not an indictment, that’s just life).
I was medically retired after 11 years in the AF, as an E-6. If I had lived in a regular smallish base town, I’d have been SOL, but I was in Washington DC. I ended up as a contractor for the organization I was in, in the military, and I made a *ton* more money as a civilian. But I was in the right place with the right skillz (systems analysis, but it wasn’t l33t skillz) and knew the right people. Basically, they needed me back. (I don’t live there any more–I live in Alabama and don’t have to work because of the cost of living here.)
My (now ex-) husband got out later (he was an E-5), but he had a degree and had the benefit of my already having done the whole resume thing and my knowing my way around the civilian employment world. He ended up working for a big defense contractor, making six figures six months after he started with them. It CAN be done, but you can’t expect it to drop in your lap.

As far as the skeptics go (those who ask why you’re getting out), I really think it’s a little bit of jealousy–more people than are willing to admit would LIKE to get a shot at the high-paying job of their dreams, but either know that dream is unrealistic for them or they’re just afraid to take the risk. The military (wisely) DOES shelter its people to an extent, and it works to keep a lot of good people around. I’ll second what EMA said in #3, too.

Excellent comments. I have yet to hear this perspective. I have no military service, and I have a masters degree from ucla in management, but I think a few things have went unmentioned.

there are some jobs where military service is valued (Fire Department, etc..), but having any of these things doesnt solidify your position in a company; you have to me modivated.

One last note: when you are eighty, you will look back on your time in service while many other will not, and as one Air Force PJ noted to me, “you have your whole life to make money”. All important points.

As a retired USNR CDR, who has worked in Human Resources for twenty plus years, your comments are very close to the mark. One disadvantage to military service is that in many cases it puts you behind others who have been in the market for those four to eight years you served. On the other hand, guys like me in H.R. give extra time and consideration to veterans. One tip, don’t fill up your resume with military terms that mean nothing to someone without military experience (and even then I don’t know what some Army & Air Force terms mean).

I went into the USMC mainly because of location. I’m from SoCal and for the most part, except a stint in a MEU & Iraq, I stayed in SoCal. Got top of the line SatCom technician training and after a year of MOS school, I realized this schooling wouldn’t have counted for anything. I knew I didn’t want to be a lifer, I just wanted to get out of my own. Unfortunatley everything in life takes hard work, at least some. I agree with the primary points of your article, everything must be worked for. So instead of shooting the you know what at the barracks, e-club, bar, etc. get your credientials going if you want any kind of continuance of your stadard of living. I got my BS degree during my 5 yr enlistment and I’m convinced I got my well paid entry level accounting job becasue of two reasone: 1) my degree and 2) my hiring manager was an ex-marine (yes ex-marines do exist, try telling a hiring manager once a marine always a marine and he’ll be happy to say “go back”). You just need to get your foot at the door. Two years a promotion and 20% pay raise later I’m no longer entry level. I did enjoy my time in the military and it opens doors, but the truth is you have to fill in the gap that serving in the military creates in order to get pay you ‘think’ you should be at.

I have to say that I have had an excellent experience with helping a recent enlisted retiree look for a job, but I do live in the DC area. That makes me think positive things about my future prospects.

On the other hand, I have to disagree with Jeremy (#11) about the fire department. My civilian job is with the fire department, and in my experience, fire departments only respect training and experience you got with THEIR organization. This is starting to change, but the pace is glacial (even slower than changes for the military tend to be). The police are well ahead of us there and tend to be much more tolerant and respectful of bolth military service and service in other departments.

The military is a team, and requires team players. So it’s no surprise that most separating military members would choose to join another team, rather than striking out on their own.

The big money is in self-employment, not getting a “job.” You have to know how to do a lot of things for yourself, and know how to hook up with other freelancers who can do what you need.

The whole “corporate” mentality is depressing, whatever the all-encompassing employer may be. Government, corporation, NGO, etc.

America is all about the independent minded person who makes his own future, but it seems like america is sinking into the PC conformity of Europe and Asia. Too bad.

Hadley,
While you may think I “struck out” in the military, I can assure you I would not strike out were I swinging a bat at your head.

@Hadley:
Interesting theory on the nature of entrepreneurialism. Of course, it ignores the fact that SMB owners with military backgrounds have a statistically higher success rate than non-veterans largely due to (1) increased federal assistance for veteran entrepreneurs and (2) presence of core skills generally believed to be a universal key to SMB success, such as work ethic and ability to lead a team (of employees).

@article:
Great story. I agree with the core concept, and appreciate that you included some of the key exceptions (e.g., linguists). Supply and demand rules the labor market just as much as the goods market, capital market, or any other market.

Dimitri
http://MILRUMINT.com/

Great site, Dimitri. I like the style and content.

Midnight:
Thx for the compliment. I have a lot of work to do on the site, but I see it as a military news community. I should put more time into the site, but I’m active duty, married w/ kids, and a full-time graduate student. So, the site often gets shorted. …but I’ll pay it some attention during class break. :)

By the way, I subscribed to your RSS feed due to the quality of your writing. It is refreshing when I find a blog that is well researched and composed.

Dimitri
http://MILRUMINT.com/

Midnight,

I think you missed the mark on Hadley’s comment. It seems to me that he used, “striking out” as in starting a journey nat as in a subpar at-bat.

In any case, I think that part of your frustration in talking to other servicemembers about getting out is that they all seem offended by it if you are staying in the military. I have a few personal theories on this, but you seem far more eloquent so I’ll let you comment on it.

I like the blog.

Good luck “outside”!

Doogie

I think you missed the mark on Hadley’s comment. It seems to me that he used, “striking out” as in starting a journey not as in a subpar at-bat.

I can’t believe I misspelled “not”.

Doogie

How on earth did you conclude that an E-4 with four years of service has an equivalent annual salary of $40k? Even spending a year in country overseas one would have trouble coming up with these sort of ridiculous numbers. Not that I disagree with you entirely, but this is just plain false. The monetary benefits are just not there in the military, nor the technical skills(particularly in the Marine Corps) applicable to the civilian market, nor a choice in where you work or if you will even be there in 6 months.

@John Doe

Read the blog previous to this titled “The Myth of Military Pay.” In it I use an ancient technique developed by the Chinese called “math.”

Thanks for the well written article. I am in my second term and researching on how to get out and satisfy my career and financial needs. I know its possible, I just have to take the leap.

-To amplify the drop off of ‘military experience’ when translated to civilian world, things don’t always scale as you hope for: It is common for 20 year olds in the military to ‘be in charge of’ several people and $$s worth of equipment.

On the civilian side being in charge of even 3 to 5 people is a pretty big jump and takes many, many years to attain (generally speaking of course).

When it comes to budgets and physical assets, the wait is even longer.

-I echo the education factor: Earn a B.S. if at all possible before transitioning out. And in today’s world, advanced degrees get noticed.

-Need work? 1,000s of teaching positions are needed. Again, you’ll need education but the job openings are there (maybe even be a cheerleading coach as well?!)

Another very common military to civilian transition = law enforcement.

Post Military Employment…

Seven of the best sites about employment after a military career. Know of another site that should be on this list? Leave your suggestion at the bottom of this page. (Related searches: U.S. Veterans)
1. TAOnline - Transition Assistance Online offers in…