I would expect they’ll be declassified in 25 years, as most classified information is. We all “hold back” on classified, Doug, because 1) if you don’t you may end up in Leavenworth and 2) it protects America’s sources and methods of intelligence.

You refuse to accept that someone besides yourself has the intelligence to fully consider this information, yet come to a different conclusion than you have. It is naive, insulting, and ridiculous.

I am no longer debating this because you aren’t worth my time. I could write my wife a letter in the time it takes me to type a rebuttal to your asinine banter. I have few precious hours of leisure each day. You no longer get one of them.

This thread is done.

Ya know Doug, the truth is I don’t think ti has anything to do with not wanting to think about the issue or deal with the issue because Midnight here is actually present in the very country facing the very issues that you are only able to read about. The fact of the matter is Midnight may grow weary of repeating himself. It can get to be one of those situations where you tell the really stupid person that when you put your hand on a hot burner he is going to get burned therefore turning off the burner or staying away from the stove will alleviate the problem but the idiot does neither but wishes to discuss to death how it’s everyone elses fault he was burned besides him. The point is……we all know you can only beat a dead horse for so long or in this case an ignorant one.

I really don’t think you can put a price tag on freedom, Doug. If people only focused on the cost, than democracy would never happen anywhere. Look at our country, look how long it has taken us to get where we are and the lives that have been given in the name of freedom and democracy. We are giving the Iraqi people a great gift, the chance to form their own government, their style of democracy and freedom. But it doesn’t happen overnight, especially with a people suppressed as long as these people have been. It gets bad before it gets better; our country is living proof of that. Give them time! Three years is a drop in the bucket.

I suggest you get away from CNN and the rest of the “drive by” liberal media. A man could get driven to suicide listening to that depressing garbage.

That is all.

We’ve recently found out that Bush authorized leaks of classified information to Judith Miller to bolster his case. Do you really think they’re holding back on classified information that justifies his decision? It’s been over three years. At what point do you suppose they’ll spring this astonishing information on us?

And you called me naive.

But I understand you desire not to debate this anymore. If, like most Americans, you don’t want to think about these things, it becomes pointless. It’s just something you’ll have to come to terms with in your own time.

How much classified material do you think exists in the US intelligence system? Possibly more than the 90 pages of the National Intelligence Estimate? Those documents are a drop in the ocean of the overall intel picture of which I am referring to.

The bottom line is that it’s easy to criticize others’ decisions, especially when you aren’t privy to 90% of the information on which they based those decisions. It’s difficult to subject yourself to ridicule and second-guessing by making tough decisions. I firmly believe one of the greatest things I ever learned is that I don’t know everything, and some people are just more qualified than me to execute certain jobs. I’m comfortable with that. I don’t have to pretend my value to this world is anything greater than it is, because I am happy with the value I know I do bring to this world.

Doug, as convinced as you are that Bush was wrong and as convinced as I am that he was right, we are like two Iraqi potato farmers debating Einstein’s theory of special relativity. That’s why we have a representative democracy, so that people of our choosing can be made privy to that information and make the tough decisions for us. I’m sorry the past 7 years didn’t work out well for you, but that’s just the way it goes. The previous eight weren’t that great for freedom-loving Americans either.

Can you stop Bush-hating long enough to understand how frivilous this all is? I’ll catch insurgents and speak my piece, you do whatever it is that you do, and speak your piece on that.

I’m done. Cheers.

DougS: “Between 2004 and 2005, the number of insurgent attacks rose from 26,496 to 34,131, including a doubling of car and roadside bombs and a quadrupling of suicide bombs.”

Isn’t that all the more reason to fight these insurgents? In the words of a teenage girl, “Like, duh!”

DougS: “87% of Iraqis want a timeline for US withdrawal, and 47% approve of attacks on American soldiers.”

Did they (whoever this supposedly accurate source is) ask EVERY Iraqi, or just the ones they wanted to?

DougS: “Nothing. That is, nothing different than what we had been doing for 12 years – maintain the no-fly zones, and pressure Hussein to accept unlimited inspections in exchange for a loosening of the sanctions.”

So basically just tell Saddamm “Yeah, uh, you were connected with the people who bombed important US landmarks and murdered thousands, but, uh, whatever. Can you pleeeaaase sign this paper?” I’m sure THAT will satisfy the family members of the victims of the attack! And it’ll probably make America look stronger! Yeah, that’ll totally give us the image of a country who won’t take shit from anybody! You’re a GENIUS!

Happy to oblige. The answer is: nothing.

That is, nothing different than what we had been doing for 12 years – maintain the no-fly zones, and pressure Hussein to accept unlimited inspections in exchange for a loosening of the sanctions. I think you’ll agree that it turned out the sanctions worked. Despite a few shady oil deals on the side, Iraq had not been able to, or even tried to, import any banned materials or revitalize WMD programs – which was the whole point. And the cost was orders of magnitude lower than what we’re paying now.

In March 2003, when UN inspectors asked for more time to complete their survey, I would have given it to them. What would it have cost us? But now we know, thanks to the words of the head of British Intelligence in the Downing Street Memo, that by July 2002, “Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action…But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy…There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action.”

You’re right, we “don’t have access to all the intel the president does”. That’s what my mom used to say, too. And that’s the problem. He declassified 25 out of 90 pages of the National Intelligence Estimate, making public only the parts that supported his case while keeping the State and Energy Dept dissents secret. He refused to declassify the presidential summary of the NIE, which also mentioned the dissents. He had control over what intel we could see – the public couldn’t check it against any other sources.

Well if the 1000 civilians dead each month aren’t my fault, what’s your point? You might as well have pointed out that 382 ground squirrels are born in Idaho each day.

My basis for the fact that we’re winning is the number of terrorist assholes that I yank out of the countryside and put in Abu G. Fair enough?

Here’s a promise: Not one more word of debate from me until you tell me…

WHAT SHOULD WE HAVE DONE?