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Email from a Journalism Grad Student

Posted by Midnight on April 11th, 2006

Dear Lt. Barnett:

I am an M.A. student in journalism at UW-Madison. I have read your blog and enjoyed it. I enjoy trying to understand the experience of soldiers in Iraq and your blog has helped me to do this.

I am currently researching an article for a journalism class regarding the opinion about the Iraq War of people in Wisconsin who have lost loved ones in the war. I have spoken to several parents of soldiers who were killed in Iraq.

I have noticed that these parents fall roughly into two groups: people who feel that protesting the war dishonors their sons and other soldiers; and people who have the opposite opinion. Among the former group, people have told me that they (and soldiers) feel that opposition to the war is equivalent to not supporting the troops.

I am old enough to remember what the homefront was like during the Vietnam War. In those days, some war protestors would call U.S. soldiers “baby killers,” etc. There was no attempt by many opposed to the war to distinguish between what they saw as an immoral war and moral soldiers prosecuting that war.

Looking at the mood of the homefront now, I see a radical difference. I think that people opposing the war are taking great pains to distinguish their protest style from that of the Vietnam era–i.e., not to vilify U.S. troops and in fact to try to express support for the troops. Therefore, it has been interesting to me to hear people express the idea that protest against the war negates these protestors’ good intentions. In other words, to soldiers (and families) protest equals lack of support.

Since some of my interviewees claim to be speaking on behalf of soldiers by expressing this opinion, I would like to find out whether their opinions are really shared with soldiers in Iraq.

Therefore, I would like to ask your opinion about this matter: What is your attitude (and that of other soldiers in Iraq, as far as you know) to homefront protest against the war or non-support of the war? Do you equate that to non-support of the troops? Does support of the troops require unquestioning support of the mission? How does opposition to the war at home make you and other soldiers in Iraq feel? Is it demoralizing? Does it make your job more difficult? Additionally, last week many Wisconsin counties held referenda regarding whether or not the U.S. should withdraw from Iraq? What is your opinion about this?

I know you are very busy, of course. However, I would appreciate any response you could make. I also would be delighted if you could share this e-mail with other soldiers there. I would be eager to learn the opinions of as many soldiers as possible.

Although this line of questioning is tangential to the original thrust of my research, I have discovered that journalism is like spelunking (or what I imagine spelunking to be)–one keeps encountering forks in the road of inquiry. So, it is kind of difficult at the beginning to map out where you will ultimately end up.

If you or others are able to respond, I would appreciate having the responder’s name and/or job title and general location.

Thank you very much for any response you can make.

Best wishes for your safety and success with your mission,

Kathryn

————————————————————————————

Kathryn,

Thank you for the email. I will be happy to field your questions, as this is a vastly interesting and controversial topic. I speak for myself and myself only.

What is your attitude (and that of other soldiers in Iraq, as far as you know) to homefront protest against the war or non-support of the war?

I believe free speech is a vital and healthy tenet of our society. When the drafters of the Bill of Rights sat down to make a list of things the .gov should absolutely not touch, free speech was #1. The right to keep and bear arms was #2, by the way, and I’d hate to see this country trample on the First Ammendment as it has the Second Ammendment. You can never please all of the people all the time. If you ever see that happening, you may very well be in the middle of a dictatorship, and while DougS says “there are worse things than a dictatorship,” I would certainly hate for it to be me. The bottom line is that I think it’s fine that people protest the war. I don’t happen to agree with their opinion, but part of respect is being able to disagree with someone.

Do you equate that to non-support of the troops?

I have met several people who have told me “I am against the war, but I support you.” It’s hard for me personally to wrap my mind around not supporting a war yet supporting those who execute that war, but it does appear possible. I have yet to met anyone hostile towards me or my Marines because we are warfighers. I have read their articles on blogs and in newspapers, so I know they do exist, but the vast majority of dissenters tend to carry the “I support the troops, but not the war” attitude. I think this may be a product of trend. How many protesters have the gall to actively oppose our troops when most of their peers do not? September 11th made it trendy to be a patriot, and much like everything else in American pop culture, nobody wants to get caught with their own ideas that no one else agrees with. Do I equate protesting the war with non-support of the troops? No. Do I scrutinize the motivations of war protesters and wonder what they really believe in those deep, dark places they don’t like to talk about at parties? Yes.

Does support of the troops require unquestioning support of the mission?

Nothing should ever be unquestioning. Even military orders given to us by our commanders are only to be executed if they are “lawful orders.” It’s up to the individual to determine whether an order is lawful. I think I expounded on this enough during the previous question. I think it is possible for someone to support our troops but not support their mission.

How does opposition to the war at home make you and other soldiers in Iraq feel?

I can only speak to what I think about the situation. I understand there will always be dissenting opinion to any decision made by anyone. I deal with it everyday. When someone doesn’t like one of my decisions my standard question in return is ‘OK, do you have a better idea?” My personal opinion is that opposition to the war doesn’t bother me. I think it’s naive and narrow-minded. What should we have done? Do they really want us to pack our bags and pull out tomorrow? Do they understand that will leave this job undone, for another generation. Thomas Paine once said “If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace.”

Is it demoralizing?

Well, it certainly doesn’t build morale. However, I am fine with people disagreeing with me. I also don’t mind that not everyone in the world wants to be my friend. In the words of Doc Holliday: You know, if I didn’t think you were my friend, I don’t think I could bear it.

Does it make your job more difficult?

I am very separated from any protest against the war, and it is unable to affect my job. Furthermore, my wife is as resolved as I am, so I do not have to deal with any dissenting opinion on the homefront. I can pretty much deal with anything else. To let a few war protesters in the states affect the execution of my job would be lunacy, and I would consider myself weak because of it.

Additionally, last week many Wisconsin counties held referenda regarding whether or not the U.S. should withdraw from Iraq? What is your opinion about this?

My opinion? Did they also discuss corporate marketing strategies? I’m guessing Bill Gates and Steve Jobs made it a point to attend. Perhaps they have an opinion on whether I should put my left boot on first or my right? The way this system works is simple: You elect a representative that best reflects your personal values. That representative votes on your behalf. If you can’t elect a representative that shares your values you either move or accept the fact that your opinion may be in the minority. The way it DOESN’T work is by random counties in a random state holding a referenda on national military policy and thinking anyone gives two shits. Let General Pace and the rest of the Chiefs of Staff do their job. Let the Commandant do his job. They get paid plenty to do it, have been doing it for 30+ years, and are vastly more qualified than you, me, and any county commission in Wisconsin. If these county referendums would really like to do something useful perhaps they could send me some cheese. I’m a fan of smoked Gouda.

Your comparison to the Vietnam era protests is interesting. In “On Killing” Dave Grossman explores the effects of these protests in depth. He concludes that they contributed heavily to the dramatically increased numbers of PTSD that is present in Vietnam veterans. He contends that the inability of society to help these veterans cope with having to kill their fellow man caused the psychological train wrecks that are often present in veterans of that war. I am not 100% convinced of his theories, but it does present some interesting food for thought, especially for the protester who actively DOES NOT support our troops. One thing that comes to mind is the final scene in James Webb’s book “Fields of Fire” where one of the characters (I think it is Senator) gives a speech about the war and returns to find his car defaced. I am certainly laisse-fare about the war protesters, but my opinion might change if I returned to booing, spitting, and accusations. I also can’t accurately predict how I would feel if I was a parent who lost a son or daughter in the war. It might change my opinion. However, a good perspective of one’s place in the universe may also be in order. I joined the Marine Corps because I believe in values that are bigger and more important than myself. The Declaration of Independence states that all men are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights. It doesn’t state “all Americans,” but “all men” (all of humanity). Because of what we’re doing over here millions of people will now come closer to enjoying those inalienable rights that were suppressed from them for so long. I hope that if I fall my loved ones will know that my death served a greater good, and I hope they would be level-headed enough to view the issue through an untainted lens.



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Reader Comments

Well said Midnight!Take care.

Semper gratus,
Donna

GG… +1

How old are you again? Physically, I mean, because those are some very, very mature views. The world needs a few more million you’s.

Really, really good answers, Midnight. I agree with Mintz.

Great read.

Also got a laugh out of:

“If these county referendums would really like to do something useful perhaps they could send me some cheese. I’m a fan of smoked Gouda.”

“I joined the Marine Corps because I believe in values that are bigger and more important than myself”. This says so much about your character and everything you said after this statement only reinforces the positive impression. Mintz pegged it. The nation could use another hundred million clear and mature thinkers such as yourself.

I salute, as well your wife who “is as resolved” as you are. I have an incredible amount of admiration for the dedication and service of the military wife.

Finally, as a Wisconsinite, I REALLY appreciate your comment to the Wisconsin localities who are voting on the war!!!

Stay safe.

Web Reconnaissance for 04/12/2006…

A short recon of whatÂ’s out there that might draw your attention….

Midnight,

Got the following email in my in box today and think it shows the dual perspectives to the question of localities voting on the war. Yes there is the question as to the effect on the troops but it is certain also that it is sending a message to Al Qaeda, since they have mentioned the US Homefront on a number of occasions. Stepped up violence may well be linked to the the effect it has not only in Iraq but here in the US.

Dear Janet,

We are a nation at war. This war came to our shores on September 11, 2001, and ever since that day, our troops have fought this war heroically on foreign battlefields, so we will not have to face this threat at home. Iraq is a central front in this War on Terror.

Recently, a small handful of communities have begun to question their commitment to the security of the United States. This is a dangerous message to send to our enemies. We must not allow the voices of a few to drown out the overwhelming number of Wisconsinites who support the troops and their mission.

Stand with our Troops. Submit a Letter to the Editor of Your Local Paper in Support of Their Mission.

Any artificial timetable for withdrawal would only motivate our enemies and increase the threats facing our troops. President Bush will not give the terrorists the comfort of an artificial timetable; under his leadership, America remains dedicated to defeating the terrorists and bringing freedom to Iraq.

Support our Troops. Call your local talk radio station today.

Our troops are serving honorably for the safety and security of the American people. Do your part to make sure that they know that Wisconsin stands squarely beside them.

Sincerely,

Rick Wiley

I could not agree with Mr Wiley more

Here’s another opinion on the “I support ther troops not the war” mentality from someone who was there and is now back in the states. http://mdfay.blogspot.com/2006/04/pay-it-forward.html

Please note in the link above: you need to go about half way down the post to hear his view.

Get the man some cheese! I loved that! Well said, Jeff. I think you have quite recovered from your bout with sickness.

Jeff, can i put that on MySpace? :)

Slayer,
You can repost anwhere you’d like.

Sweet!

“On Killing” was a great read. As far as the PTSD commentary from Grossman’s book…”Stolen Valour” makes a great companion.

cl

Glad that you’ve recovered from your illness and you’re back in fine form. You must have some really superb genetics! Your passion and energy are to be commended. Take care.

I think the inquiring jurnalism student said it all when she closed her letter “Best wishes for your safety and success with your mission”

Regardless of where she or anywone else for that matter, stands on the reasons for the war, she supports the troops by supporting success for their mission.

The vast majority of the vocal war protestors can’t say in honesty they support success in the misssion. “Peace at any price” just doesn’t pass the test.

If you don’t support the Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Airmen in Iraq and Afghanistan, then you don’t support the mission. They are the ones going in harm’s way everyday. If you have never served, it is something you will never understand. Peace and Freedom do require a price. If you can’t deal with it, Leave.
I volunteered at the end of Viet Nam and suffered through the Jimmy Carter years. If I project an “attitude”, Oh well. Deal with it.
Cromwell said it best ” Kill them all and let G-d sort them out” It needs to be total war. Because if we don’t go into a fight to win, we don’t belong in it.
AMH1(AW) 1973-1993

Great answers…I especially like the Paine quote. You also nailed the question concerning the WI referendum!

Even though I have never served in the military, I would like to insert my opinion from the standpoint of a family member of soldiers who served in Iraq.

It doesn’t matter how much you SAY you support the troops but not the war, if you are protesting in front of a military base on the day that soldiers are coming home, or in front of military hospitals where wounded soldiers are recovering. If you choose these venues to voice your opinion, you are not supporting the soldiers, period. In addition, if you are protesting in front of a port that sends the needed military supplies to the war fronts, I don’t care that your sign says, “I support the troops, but not the war” because your are only fooling yourself. If you truly support the troops, why would you want to prevent supplies necessary for their survival from reaching them.

I live 30 minutes from a military base in Washington State. On one of the days that soldier were returning after a very tough year in Iraq, a group of protester decided to protest in front of the military hospital entrance of this base. The protest was scheduled in advance and promoted through the media. Appalled by this choice of venue, twice as many citizens showed up to show their support to the returning soldiers. To prevent the returning soldier witnessing the ant-war protest, the real support our troops group surrounded the other protester so that their anti-war rhetoric could not be seen or heard.

My nephews were stationed at this base after returning from Iraq. When anti-war protester chose to voice their opinions just outside the gates, these soldiers were told by their leadership to mind their manners. Some of these protester say that they support the troops and want to create a dialogue between the two groups. As the soldiers are leaving the base they are not in the position to express their true opinions to those who want to “create a dialogue.” So if you truly support the troops, why would you create this type of situation for them.

If you choose to mount your protests at these or similar locations, and they are close to my hometown, I will make every effort to show up in order to counter your protest.

I agree with Spaceant. I think we should clone Midnight.

Be SAFE

Yeah, I’m not quite sure how the whole “I support the troops, but not the war.” thing works. If you don’t support the war, how can you be supporting those fighting it. If you say that you support our troops because “they are keeping us safe” then how can you be opposed to the war?

It must be possible, but I haven’t figured it out yet.

I’ll never believe that you can support the troops not the war. It just doesn’t work that way. After watching these idiot protestors wave their signs in front of a funeral home when one of our loacl fallen heroes was laid to rest how could they ever say they have supported him just now what he was fighting for?

Midnight I have been reading your blog for some time now. I appreciate you and everyone else who are brave enough to be doing what the cowards who are over here waving their signs are free to do because of you.

God Bless

What should we have done? Do they really want us to pack our bags and pull out tomorrow? Do they understand that will leave this job undone, for another generation?

Yes, I do. What “job” do you think we’re doing over there? If the job was deposing Saddam and disarming him from imaginary weapons, that was done 3 years ago. If it was to impose a democracy, we’ve had the elections. If it’s to put down the insurgency, all the casualty trends indicate you’re not winning, which is all an insurgency can hope for against a powerful opponent. For civilians, it’s getting worse over time - over a thousand dead each month (icasualties.org/oif/). Almost all the quality of life indicators (electricity, infant mortality, crime rates) are worse than under the crippling sanctions and Saddam’s misrule. This is not opinion, but hard numbers.

In reality, the primary job you’re doing over there is to stabilize things enough so it looks like less of a mistake. But we don’t have the hundreds of thousands of additional troops and, in the absence of a compelling reason, the public support to impose our will on a large chaotic country. So face it, we are going to withdraw, whether in 6 months or 6 years.

If we left tomorrow, the Sunnis do not have the numbers to reimpose their rule over the Shiites and Kurds, who would not allow the return of the Batthists. There’d be a lot of militias fighting each other, which is pretty much going on now. But withdrawal would take away a lot of the public support for the Sunni insurgency, which gains legitimacy by fighting a foreign occupier, and do more than anything to scare the moderates on both sides into cooperation.

“If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace.”

I’m sorry, my impression was that we DID have peace. Then we started a war.

And to the commenter that said:
If you have never served, it is something you will never understand.

I did serve as an Air Force officer. And I don’t think you have to have been in the military to think for yourself on national security. On the other hand, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Rice never served. Our supreme leader used connections to remain stateside to keep himself out of a war he supported sending others to. How much do you think they “understand” what war is? Better than the half-dozen retired generals calling for Rumsfeld’s head?

…good grief.

Oops, I left out Cheney. Slayer, you’re not getting inarticulate on me, are you?

lol, I’m just not going to waste my time anymore. I’ll let Midnight have the floor. I get worked up over these things. I don’t think it is good for me to put myself into an argument that is just going to make me upset, neither side is going to give, so there is really no point. I can read and try to understand other points of view, without getting into the argument myself.

OK, I’m sorry, I have to say this. Then I will be silent. I didn’t see it before, but I have now…

“I’m sorry, my impression was that we DID have peace. Then we started a war.”

Good Lord man, we were attacked! 9/11! This is a war on terrorism! Do you not remember? They (the terrorists) started the war!

That is it! I am not going to argue anymore. I’m done. …I hope. :)

Really? You get upset? I’m having fun injecting a little color into the oatmeal. Doesn’t it bother you when everyone here is so unquestioning? We should always be asking why.

Doug,

I’ve got to go clean up mistakes for a little while. I’ll discuss this when I return. Aim high.

Midnight

DougS: “Doesn’t it bother you when everyone here is so unquestioning? We should always be asking why”.

Don’t you think it just a wee bit pretentious of you to assume that there is only one clear and independent thinker here? There is a vast difference between those who may be of like mind on an issue and people who are unwilling or incapable of thinking for themselves. :)

Meanwhile, be safe, Midnight.

I can only judge posters by their words, and what I’ve read is completely unquestioning of the basis of this war. If you can logically show me A to B where I’m wrong and give me objective evidence supporting your views, I’m happy to consider your views. But general slogans like “we were attacked on 9/11″ ignore the obvious. Can you guess what it is?

For those who can’t reconcile “support the troops” with “against the war”, let me explain my attitude: the troops are not responsible for the strategy or the war, only the conduct of it. I think 99% of them are doing the best job they can, given the inadequate size of the force. Most people against the war seem to feel the same way. Since there’s almost no one who doesn’t “support the troops” in a literal sense, I don’t see it as a controversy. However

DougS, “If you can logically show me A to B where I’m wrong and give me objective evidence supporting your views, I’m happy to consider your views”.

I appreciate the fact that you would consider my views but unfortunately, I do not have the time nor the inclination. Unlike Cervantes’ Don Quixote, I know a hopeless cause when I encounter it. You would not be persuaded by the most brilliant of arguments, and in all modesty, were I to undertake such a task, it would be augustly and impressively put forth. Instead, I suggest you read Christopher Hitchens’ many perceptive and well documented writings on the subject (Google: Christopher Hitchens on Iraq). He gets paid to present such time comsuming and worthy theses and he addresses this question with just the degree of finesse and specificity you seek.

As to “support the troops and oppose the war,” I lived through the Viet Nam War entirely as an adult and consider this rhetoric to be semantics put forth by those who recognize how unpopular, in retrospect, the treatment of troops from the Vietnam era has proved to be over time. They dissemble now to avoid similar complaint in the current circumstance.

Now, I move on to other commitments, having run through my allotted time on this particular enterprise.

Stay safe, Midnight. You and your marines are much in my thoughts.

DougS,

My blood pressure rises with any debate I get into. By upset, I don’t mean “slamming the keyboard”, I mean just uptight. I don’t like it. However, some debates I can handle. But debates like this one, where nobody wins, its just back and forth, back and forth, get old fast.

That does not mean by any means that I believe I am wrong, I don’t, I believe I am right.

Unquestioning? I think you are the one that seems to believe every thing that the drive by media is telling us. I do not agree with every single thing this president has done, however I believe he is right for the most part and I support him.

There is a difference between questioning and thwarting or undermining which is what the left seems to want to do to this president and the military.

If we pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan, it will show that the U.S. is weak. We cannot afford to be weak. There are to many people out there that would like to destroy our way of life. It is getting better in Iraq, and as for Afghanistan… well, Afghanistan is a huge success! But that is not what the left would have us believe.

I know this post is kinda scattered, I didn’t put much into it, so you will have to excuse me.

I’m serious now, I am done. That is all.

As an OIF vet who entered the Marine Corps 2 months before 9/11 I have to say that there is something eerily poetic about a young man returned to a different world after he left the Parade Deck of MCRD Parris Island, SC.

I have to confess that my feelings are a bit ambivalent about the anti-war protestors. I don’t think they are the typical utra-liberal, anti-patriotic, pro-French scum as portrayed by FoxNews. I think that many if not most of the protesters do sincerely care for the life and well being of every American in Iraq. I think caring for the lives of fellow countrymen is actually a patriotic trait. I commend people voicing their opinions

I question if they have thought out the whole thing through and carefully. There are, however, people in this country who have wrapped themselves up in the American Flag. They are demagogues who play upon the fears of their fellow Americans and raise the stakes of war to a whole new level. I won’t name who I think fits into this category. I don’t think it is appropriate to do so. However let me say that I scoff at the audacity of those whose common line is “Honor our Veterans and our troops;” and yet, when senior retired military commanders and politicians with military service voice their criticisms of the way this war is being run, automatically they get derided as being unpatriotic, or defeatist. Automatically their military service is ignored or being called into service. I think I have said my piece concerning this matter. Those who read this blog are intelligent and know enough about current and past events that relate to my point.

That being said, Sir, thanks for your blog. Thank you for articulating your point of view.

I support our Troops and I support the mission. I pray you will be victorious.

Stay safe, God Bless.

Slayer: Your views are stated clearly and with conviction. I support everything you have said with the exception of your self doubt. In future, proof that all out before you submit. It is incidental to the veracity of your argument! :)

Thank you, I just meant that I didn’t organize what I said very well. It kinda jumped around.

DougS: “Doesn’t it bother you when everyone here is so unquestioning? We should always be asking why”.

You’re not religious, are you?

Natural Rights (outlined in our Declaration of Independence): Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Whatever you may think we’re “supposed” to be doing in Iraq, you can’t deny this: Soldiers, good American men and women, are fighting to help give others these natural rights. So what if there aren’t any confirmed WMDs? We’re there to improve an oppressed peoples’ way of life, granting them abilites which Saddam limited.

I don’t give a damn what you think, but if we’re trying to make the world a better place to live, we’re succeeding.

We are a nation unique in that we have had a written Constitution for the entire duration of our existence and have the additional comfort of a Bill of Rights to assure us that to the extent humanly possible, we enjoy life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Jeff wrote, “The Declaration of Independence states that all men are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights. It doesn’t state “all Americans,” but “all men” (all of humanity). Because of what we’re doing over here millions of people will now come closer to enjoying those inalienable rights that were suppressed from them for so long”. Further he stated, “I joined the Marine Corps because I believe in values that are bigger and more important than myself.’ The Founding Fathers pledged their lives, their fortunes and their Sacred Honor to the task ahead of them when they wrote the Declaration. Each young American joining the military makes a similar pledge in today’s vernacular when they enter the military.

As I mentioned previously, many commenting on this blog are of like mind on what we have undertaken in Iraq as a part of the GWOT. There are those who dispute a connection to the WTC and Saddam. But there were two attempts to bring down the WTC. There was 9/11 and then there was the First WTC attack that occurred on the closest work day to the 2nd anniversary of the retaking of Kuwait from Saddam. There is no party that would be interested in that anniversary other than Saddam though the 9/11 Commission tied Al Qaeda to the earlier attack as well as 9/11.

The only one of the earlier conspirators that was never apprehended was one Abdul Rahman Yasin who was an Iraqi, born in the US but returned to Iraq as an infant. He came back to mix the chemicals for the bomb then returned to Iraq where Saddam gave him sanctuary. This is strong circumstantial evidence though not necessarily enough for a court of law. Couple this with an attempt to assassinate, in Kuwait, George H W Bush who ordered the retaking of Kuwait. The leader of the conspiracy was Saddam Hussein.

There is increasing evidence of WMD as captured, untranslated papers are finally being taken from the Arabic to English. When the formidable job of translation is completed we may well know what became of them. However, we know he had them for Halabjah was the bitter proof. Incidentally, Saddam in now on trial for the murder of the men, women and children of Halabjah by WMD and the dead may finally obtain justice for that crime against humanity.

We have each thought it out and have arrived at the rightness of American action through our own thought processes and for somewhat different reasons though they over lap and dovetail and have a common basis. As Midnight suggests, when all the legalistic reasons are laid aside, we are sharing the tenets of our belief in Liberty to a people who have suffered, still suffer but who may yet attained that inalienable right by virtue of the United States Military and the American people. I can tell it makes all of you feel as good as it makes me feel. That Purple Finger was worth fighting for! And I use the word fighting in the sense that each of us has paid the taxes that supply the weapons of war, while supporting both the troops and the mission. And As Mintz puts it “if we’re trying to make the world a better place to live, we’re succeeding”.

Midnight, you and your marines are much in my thoughts. Stay safe.

Man, the idea of reading all that is just… daunting for me. :) But I will!

NM, something went whacky with the post, I guess.

Midnight,

Listening to the the news this week-end and hope all is well with you and your marines. You and they are much in my prayers. Stay safe, God bless you all.

Doug,
You’ve espoused some familiar (some might say tired) rhetoric about the “mistake” of Iraq, but you’ve failed to answer my question: What should we have done? With a preponderance of our intelligence pointing to the fact that Saddam not only had WMDs, but was linked to Al-Queda and other terrorist attacks against the US, what should we have done with him? He refused to comply with UN inspectors, what should our response have been? You seem to be an intelligent, albeit misguided, individual. Throw out some national policy, Rommel. What should we have done?

While you’re chewing on that…

My mental database of quotes is failing me, but I seem to remember one that goes as such: “It’s easy to be the one sitting back critiquing other’s decisions, but it’s difficult to be that person out there making decisions.” Sometimes you have to go with what we (Marines) call the 80% solution. Everything isn’t perfect. You may have conflicting information, a short timeline, and an unclear enemy, but you’ve got to make a decision based on your best assessment at the time. Just like rules of engagement investigations, you are judged by the way the situation appeared at the time, not as it appears in retrospect. President Bush made a calculated and introspective decision based on the best information he had at the time. I would hope any military officer could appreciate that, although I am sure that is asking too much. As my commander in chief said “Hindsight is not wisdom.”

If you think you are the only critically thinking individual on this blog, you are quite mistaken. I have spent a lot of time with many of the users here. I have eaten dinner with them, taken roadtrips trips with them, and discussed various issues relevant to our society, some that we disagree on. On the contrary, you will scarcely find a group of people who are more critically thinking than those in present company. Just because you’ve come to a different conclusion than everyone else here doesn’t mean that no one else has thought the situation through.

What job do I think I’m doing? Doug, I hunt insurgents. I capture and kill those who would harm me, my family, and as we have seen of late, the Iraqi populace. On a larger scale, I am here to train the Iraqi Army, Iraqi Police, and Iraqi National Guard. I am here to protect Iraq’s critical infrastructure. I am here to fight, suppress, or otherwise destroy the insurgency so that Iraq can have sustained peace. I am here to foster democracy so this portion of the world can have a government that serves its people, not the other way around.

So there have already been elections, huh? I guess the job is done. We have thrown our kid in the lake and he’s not drowning. Problem solved. No…not quite. Why don’t we teach the kid to swim? Perhaps even do a few laps with our protégé before we head to the house. Wouldn’t that be genteel?

The reality of the situation is that there IS a large power gap left by the ousted Sunni government. Sunnis are scrambling to regain their status and the rising Shia influence is threatening them. Yes, there is sectarian violence, and there probably always will be. The difference is that pulling out now means the violence will probably tear this fledgling country apart. If we stay until Iraq is more mature then the state will be able to handle its sometimes undesirable affairs without crumbling.

You’re right; we DID have peace, Doug, until we were attacked on 11-Sep 2001. Sorry if the truth isn’t an acceptable answer. Did you really think you were going to get away with that one?

1,000 Iraqi civilians dead per month? Bullshit. Not in the context you’re presenting it. I see a bulletin of every significant coalition event in Al Anbar each day. We certainly aren’t killing these civilians. I can count on one hand the numbers of Iraqi civilians I have heard of that have been wounded by coalition forces since I arrived almost 3 months ago. I have seen no civilian KIAs. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, somewhere in Iraq, but they aren’t dying by the masses as you allude to. Are they killing each other in sectarian violence? Maybe. Are they dying of any number of diseases? Possibly. Your statistics remind me of gun control lobbyists presenting the number of “children” who die each year due to gun violence. In their statistics they count anyone 21 and under that dies as the result of a firearm, including gang bangers and other criminals. There are lies in statistics, and your big bad figure doesn’t scare me because it’s empty inside.

We’re not winning against the insurgency? What do you know about it? Did you forget I’m the one in Iraq fighting the war? We are doing good things for Iraqis every day. Every day, I am convinced, the confidence of the Iraqi populace in their government and in our commitment to them builds. There are fewer insurgents on the street…every day. The population can’t physically produce insurgents as fast as we are plucking them out of society.

The root of your disgruntlement appears to be that elected and appointed officials do not agree with you. Military leaders don’t agree with your definition of “mission complete.” The President doesn’t agree with your outlook on what substantiates an invasion of Iraq. Various other people put into their office of power by the citizens of the United States have acted contrary to how you believe they should have. It’s always good policy to make your own cognizant observations about the world around you. It’s also good policy to remember that you don’t always know everything, and you might be wrong. I am reminded of the parable that if Johnny has a problem with Suzy, and Johnny has a problem with Eddie, and Johnny has a problem with Marcus…maybe the problem is with Johnny?

I just let you consume more of my evening than I should have. It won’t happen again. My 1500-word replies refuting your antics are over.

I just stood up and applauded to you, Midnight.

Actually, I didn’t. Or maybe I did? It’s not like you would know. Either way, the point is the same: Bravo.

Midnight…..you tell him like it is. The way I see it is this. Yes, we are all free Americans. Free because we have brave men and women like yourself keeping us that way but anyway we are free. So yes we have the right to our opinion, but the point is you are there, you are the one in Iraq seeing what is going everyday and then having to justify it to someone who wants criticize the decision making skills of our government. I have a wonderful idea… why not just ship him on over to AlQueda and let him question their decision making ability and see if appreciates the freedoms in which you are fighting for everyday. Sorry to rant just makes me angry. Your life is of great value and you risk it for people who don’t appreciate the sacrifice. Stay safe.

Make that to date,
1.a standing applause from Vlintz
2.a rant of approval from Crystal and
3.a loud cheer from JE, 100% for what you wrote and 100%
’cause you were back to write it! Thats too many %’s,
you say, but how could that be when I am suddenly
200%!!!

Bless you Midnight! Glad you’re “home” safe to your lair!

GG Midnight! 1 and all that jazz!

Half a dozen generals out of hundreds, and of course the media jumps on the bandwagon, on the side of the few, I heard 1%, with all the libs condemning Rumsfeld!

Thanks Midnight, for the REAL news, not the regurgitated CNN News at 11:00.

When I said “we were at peace” I obviously meant that we were not at war with Iraq. In the future I will spell out exactly what I mean, before everyone jumps on how I’ve forgotten all about 9-11.

I lived through the same history you did, Midnight, but my memories are perhaps a little less selective.

“With a preponderance of our intelligence pointing to the fact that Saddam not only had WMDs, but was linked to Al-Queda and other terrorist attacks against the US, what should we have done with him?”

For example, I remember the evidence for “the smoking gun could be a mushroom cloud”, consisted entirely of:

- A clumsily forged letter showing Iraq trying to buy uranium in Niger, and

- Intercepted aluminum tubes, which both the State Dept and Energy Dept (the nuclear weapons experts) disagreed that they were only suitable for nukes. Their dissent was communicated to the President in the National Intelligence Estimate, but he did not share them with us, nor were the dissenting opinions declassified with the rest of the report.

I also remember the 9-11 commission saying something about “no substantiative ties” between Iraq & Al-Qaeda, and Bush himself saying that he did not intend for people to conclude Iraq was connected to 9-11.

The mobile weapons labs? Based purely on the assertions of a defector named “Curveball” who his German handlers warned us was delusional.

“He refused to comply with UN inspectors..” Again, I’m remembering that for 2 1/2 months the inspectors had unlimited access to anywhere in Iraq, and found nothing but old CW shells. Then we told them to leave so we could start the war.

So you tell me – what powerful, inarguable evidence was that “calculated and introspective” decision made on?

Thanks to Josh Kim for his thoughts on the protestors. Our options for expressing our opposition are limited, and demonstrations are one of them. Personally, I don’t think they’re effective at changing minds, and I don’t like the lack of focus (lumping in racism, immigration, Palestine, etc.) but they do make us in the demonstration feel less isolated. Not that we’re all that isolated anymore – in the latest AP poll, 64% believe sending troops to Iraq was a mistake.

“1,000 Iraqi civilians dead per month? Bullshit.” “We certainly aren’t killing these civilians.” Did I SAY we did? Last month, there were 1058 civilians reported as violently killed, with 658 so far this month. Most of the killings are sectarian. The trend is upward – 780 were killed in January, and 846 in February. These are only reported deaths, and should be viewed as a minimum. I would also note that the US government has refused to release an estimate of civilian deaths, but Bush acknowledged last year that at least 30,000 Iraqis had been killed since the invasion.

I’m not clear on what basis you think we’re winning – for two years, the official estimate of insurgents has held steady at 15-20,000. This does not count the rise in sectarian militias. Between 2004 and 2005, the number of insurgent attacks rose from 26,496 to 34,131, including a doubling of car and roadside bombs and a quadrupling of suicide bombs. 87% of Iraqis want a timeline for US withdrawal, and 47% approve of attacks on American soldiers. There are many such indices in the new Brookings Institute report at http://www.brookings.edu/fp/saban/iraq/index.pdf.

DougS: When I said “we were at peace” I obviously meant that we were not at war with Iraq. In the future I will spell out exactly what I mean, before everyone jumps on how I’ve forgotten all about 9-11.

Correction: we were under a cease fire but technically still at war since Desert Storm and which Saddam routinely flouted by shooting at allied aircraft in the Iraqi no fly zone.

I’ll go along with that.

For the curious, the Brookings Institute grades themselves as: An independent research and policy institute with a left-liberal inclination, which seeks to improve the performance of American institutions, …

What you find at Brookings will be a LEFT LIBERAL slanted view point, by their own admission and hence is suspect at the outset as being agenda driven.

Doug,
You don’t have access to all of the intel the president does and neither do I, although I do see more than the average CNN watcher. I elected him and have faith he acted soundly. If you are that disgruntled perhaps I could interest you in a French work visa.

Well if the 1000 civilians dead each month aren’t my fault, what’s your point? You might as well have pointed out that 382 ground squirrels are born in Idaho each day.

My basis for the fact that we’re winning is the number of terrorist assholes that I yank out of the countryside and put in Abu G. Fair enough?

Here’s a promise: Not one more word of debate from me until you tell me…

WHAT SHOULD WE HAVE DONE?

I don’t know about the rest of you of but I vote for the French work visa!

“WHAT SHOULD WE HAVE DONE?”

Happy to oblige. The answer is: nothing.

That is, nothing different than what we had been doing for 12 years – maintain the no-fly zones, and pressure Hussein to accept unlimited inspections in exchange for a loosening of the sanctions. I think you’ll agree that it turned out the sanctions worked. Despite a few shady oil deals on the side, Iraq had not been able to, or even tried to, import any banned materials or revitalize WMD programs – which was the whole point. And the cost was orders of magnitude lower than what we’re paying now.

In March 2003, when UN inspectors asked for more time to complete their survey, I would have given it to them. What would it have cost us? But now we know, thanks to the words of the head of British Intelligence in the Downing Street Memo, that by July 2002, “Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action…But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy…There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action.”

You’re right, we “don’t have access to all the intel the president does”. That’s what my mom used to say, too. And that’s the problem. He declassified 25 out of 90 pages of the National Intelligence Estimate, making public only the parts that supported his case while keeping the State and Energy Dept dissents secret. He refused to declassify the presidential summary of the NIE, which also mentioned the dissents. He had control over what intel we could see – the public couldn’t check it against any other sources.

I don’t know why I’m bothering, but I will:

DougS: “Between 2004 and 2005, the number of insurgent attacks rose from 26,496 to 34,131, including a doubling of car and roadside bombs and a quadrupling of suicide bombs.”

Isn’t that all the more reason to fight these insurgents? In the words of a teenage girl, “Like, duh!”

DougS: “87% of Iraqis want a timeline for US withdrawal, and 47% approve of attacks on American soldiers.”

Did they (whoever this supposedly accurate source is) ask EVERY Iraqi, or just the ones they wanted to?

DougS: “Nothing. That is, nothing different than what we had been doing for 12 years – maintain the no-fly zones, and pressure Hussein to accept unlimited inspections in exchange for a loosening of the sanctions.”

So basically just tell Saddamm “Yeah, uh, you were connected with the people who bombed important US landmarks and murdered thousands, but, uh, whatever. Can you pleeeaaase sign this paper?” I’m sure THAT will satisfy the family members of the victims of the attack! And it’ll probably make America look stronger! Yeah, that’ll totally give us the image of a country who won’t take shit from anybody! You’re a GENIUS!

If another person was elected President in 2000, do you think we would be at war in SWA?

Good call. Making decisions is tough; inaction is much easier.

How much classified material do you think exists in the US intelligence system? Possibly more than the 90 pages of the National Intelligence Estimate? Those documents are a drop in the ocean of the overall intel picture of which I am referring to.

The bottom line is that it’s easy to criticize others’ decisions, especially when you aren’t privy to 90% of the information on which they based those decisions. It’s difficult to subject yourself to ridicule and second-guessing by making tough decisions. I firmly believe one of the greatest things I ever learned is that I don’t know everything, and some people are just more qualified than me to execute certain jobs. I’m comfortable with that. I don’t have to pretend my value to this world is anything greater than it is, because I am happy with the value I know I do bring to this world.

Doug, as convinced as you are that Bush was wrong and as convinced as I am that he was right, we are like two Iraqi potato farmers debating Einstein’s theory of special relativity. That’s why we have a representative democracy, so that people of our choosing can be made privy to that information and make the tough decisions for us. I’m sorry the past 7 years didn’t work out well for you, but that’s just the way it goes. The previous eight weren’t that great for freedom-loving Americans either.

Can you stop Bush-hating long enough to understand how frivilous this all is? I’ll catch insurgents and speak my piece, you do whatever it is that you do, and speak your piece on that.

I’m done. Cheers.

One can be decisive and wrong. If choosing not to invade a country is “inaction”, you need a few more options in your toolbox. I’ve repeatedly contrasted the costs vs benefits of this war, and no one’s been able to reply why removing a dictator with no means to harm us or our allies has been worth $300 billion and thousands of lives.

We’ve recently found out that Bush authorized leaks of classified information to Judith Miller to bolster his case. Do you really think they’re holding back on classified information that justifies his decision? It’s been over three years. At what point do you suppose they’ll spring this astonishing information on us?

And you called me naive.

But I understand you desire not to debate this anymore. If, like most Americans, you don’t want to think about these things, it becomes pointless. It’s just something you’ll have to come to terms with in your own time.

They weren’t leaks. He’s the president for goodness sake, he can declassify information.

I really don’t think you can put a price tag on freedom, Doug. If people only focused on the cost, than democracy would never happen anywhere. Look at our country, look how long it has taken us to get where we are and the lives that have been given in the name of freedom and democracy. We are giving the Iraqi people a great gift, the chance to form their own government, their style of democracy and freedom. But it doesn’t happen overnight, especially with a people suppressed as long as these people have been. It gets bad before it gets better; our country is living proof of that. Give them time! Three years is a drop in the bucket.

I suggest you get away from CNN and the rest of the “drive by” liberal media. A man could get driven to suicide listening to that depressing garbage.

That is all.

“But I understand you desire not to debate this anymore. If, like most Americans, you don’t want to think about these things, it becomes pointless. It’s just something you’ll have to come to terms with in your own time.”

Ya know Doug, the truth is I don’t think ti has anything to do with not wanting to think about the issue or deal with the issue because Midnight here is actually present in the very country facing the very issues that you are only able to read about. The fact of the matter is Midnight may grow weary of repeating himself. It can get to be one of those situations where you tell the really stupid person that when you put your hand on a hot burner he is going to get burned therefore turning off the burner or staying away from the stove will alleviate the problem but the idiot does neither but wishes to discuss to death how it’s everyone elses fault he was burned besides him. The point is……we all know you can only beat a dead horse for so long or in this case an ignorant one.

Do I strike you as being like “most Americans?” Accuse me of “not wanting to think” again and you’ll no longer be welcome here.

I would expect they’ll be declassified in 25 years, as most classified information is. We all “hold back” on classified, Doug, because 1) if you don’t you may end up in Leavenworth and 2) it protects America’s sources and methods of intelligence.

You refuse to accept that someone besides yourself has the intelligence to fully consider this information, yet come to a different conclusion than you have. It is naive, insulting, and ridiculous.

I am no longer debating this because you aren’t worth my time. I could write my wife a letter in the time it takes me to type a rebuttal to your asinine banter. I have few precious hours of leisure each day. You no longer get one of them.

This thread is done.